Child killer gets compensation; parents get more grief.
I'm too disgusted, and once again suffocated by a feeling of overwhelming helplessness and dispossession, a feeling that increases with the ever evolving occupation, a method cloaked in madness.
The infamous Captain "R" will receive NIS 80,000 in compensation from the state of Israel after being cleared of all charges in relation to the killing of 13-year-old Iman al-Hims. According to Haaretz, the judges who acquitted Captain R accepted his version of the event: that the shots that he fired were not aimed directly at the girl's body, that he opened fire in order to create a deterrence, and that he believed that the young girl posed a serious threat.
Perhaps it is a good time to review Chris McGreal's chilling detailing of the event in the Guardian here and here:
"[I]t was broad daylight, 13-year-old Iman al-Hams was wearing her school uniform, and when she walked into the Israeli army's "forbidden zone" at the bottom of her street she was carrying her satchel. A few minutes later the short, slight child was pumped with bullets. Doctors counted at least 17 wounds and said much of her head was destroyed."
What more is there to say?
posted by Laila @ Thursday, March 23, 2006
47 Comments:
So pleased that I stumbled across your blog. It's so hard living in Australia to really appreciate what you guys are going through. Thanks so much for sharing some with me
It's interesting how someone who is acquitted in a court of law can still be a killer. It the court system I know (based on the british one) a person is innocent until proven guilty.
It's a shame That she died. She is one of the victims of a society that uses children for it's vilonet ends. Where it's ok for children to be active in attacking Israel and all it's citizens. While most kids are at school learning math, Pali. kids are learning how to kill Jews and how to run the jews out of Israel. - It's sad.
this is so wrong its sick. he might as well been paid to kill her.
That nazi-IDF soldier will get his share in the Akhira, so even though he can enjoy his 80.000 in this life, he will be paid accordingly in the next.
Laila, what's the problem ? Shouldn't Israel be able to defend itself from little kids, that cross borders that Israel set to defend itself from big kids, who think that these borders are just "another brick in the wall" of occupation?
ok, that campe out wrong. Who could say that Iman al-Hams wouldn't become a suicide bomber once she grew up? And who's going to care about Israeli security then?
ok, that wasn't better either. Point is, there has to be sacrifices in the battle against terror - actually in any battle - or terror. Israel needs to make these civilian casualties on the palestinian side, so that one day - one day Israel can live in peace and harmony. Mind you they don't want to make these sacrifices - she was only shot 17 times obviously - but they have to.
The world is getting sicker every day.
Omar
Point is Oleh, in your courts of law Palestinians aren't real people. Even when found guilty, Israelis receive derisory sentences for killing Palestinian children - remember the settler guard who was found guilty of beating a child to death with his rifle butt - 6 months community service.
Your system is sick - you claim that "Palis" (which you may claim is just an abbreviation, but the people I've normally heard using it when I've visited Israel are all racists who use it in a perjorative sense - do you think that Yid is OK, just an abbreviation of Yiddish, so let's forget the context of anti-semitism in which its used) use their children etc etc, but it's your society and your methods of upbringing that produced both the man who beat the child to death and the judges that considered 6 months community service a suitable response.
Put your own house in order before attacking others. You are sick, sick, sick. I daresay Nazi courts would aquit people who killed Jews - after all it wasn't a crime in that society was it? and that's what you've come to in your country. He was acquitted because what he did - killing a palestinian child and in such a way that it is impossible to believe it to be a mistake - is not considered a crime in your society.
elna allah...
anon (10:30 AM),
yes my country is sick, we are sick of having to worry every day of every palistinian who is rying to kill us. Do you think we like this? Actually I am sure you do. you have this image in your mind of people dancing in the streets everytime we kill a Palistinian Person. well let me let you in on a little secret, we DON'T!! We want to live our normal lives, go to work every say and come home go out to the Coffee shops in the evening, hang out with our friends... Almost like normal people.
I am glad you know our court system so well that you can make assesments to it's quality. Have you taken classes on the subject or have you jsut dsecided it on your own? I don't know the case you are talking about so I will not comment (give me a link so I have some sort of refference). But I also know plenty of casses where the court did sentance people to long term Jail time for killing/murdering Palestininas (this is more than I can say the PA has ever did - or more to the point will ever do, according to Hamas)
as for this case, he was tried for a specific crime that they found out later he did not do and his soldiers seeking personal venganse on him decided to lie to the courts about it. The compensasion was because of the way he was treated during the trial, meaning that he was already guilty even though it was not proven. I am not saying that this is a good thing, I also did not say that the killing of a 13 year old girl is justified.
But the guilt cannot be laid totally on Israel. A sociaty that uses kids to fight it's battles and goes up against armed people is bound to have losses in lives. would you send your 10 year old kid to go through rocks at armed soldiers? would you send you kid to check out the Israeli border with Gaza to see test how fast Israelies react? would you let you kid go to summer camp where they teach him how to be a marder and that blowing up in a coffee shop is the best he can do? How about letting him watch TV where the main charachter talks about how good it is to kill Israelies?? your right there are problems in Israel. but the difference is here we are trying to solve them. Just like most of the world we try to make our place a good and just place to live, while in the PA, they are still looking for a way to drive the Jews into the Sea.
As for "Palis", when were you in Israel and WHEN have you EVER heard ANYONE using it? In hebrew we don't abbreviate the word. Stop trying to find every thin thread you can find to attack me with (there are much bigger issues that I can find if you want). To be fare if you started say Isr. to reffer to Israelies I will not be affended ok??
As an end note, I can only hope that there will be no more victims of the war we have between Israel and the PA. I would love to reach the day where I can go and have coffee in Gaza and Laila can have coffee In Tel Aviv, without either of us going through any road block, or having to worry what will happen to us there.
I lived in Israel Oleh, there's plent of aliah - many Americans - who don't have sufficient Hebrew vocabulary for the abuse they wish express. I do indeed know your justice system - and the administration of emergency measures that consistently overturns any progress that it makes towards becoming a country where there is equal rights for all citizens.
Anon (1:55 PM), when and where did you live in Israel? So, basically, I have a question for all of you have made comments on this post. So, you are all basically saying that the democractic Israeli court system acquits murderers, especially when those killed are Palestinians? Please, say it in plain English so that I know who it is I'm conversing with. Don't suger-coat it. Just spell it out.
-OC
I lived in Tel Aviv a little over 15 years ago. And no, I wouldn't echo the words you use, because you see I don't consider a court system to be "democratic" a court system is supposed to be just not necessarily democratic. The system in Israel is certainly not just with regard to Palestinians - the case I quoted is not particularly unusual - it happened shortly after I left Israel, but there were several cases of people being given probation, house arrest, or community service after having killed Palestinian civilians. Most of these cases concerned settlers and a group of rabbis associated with the settlers declared that killing Palestinian civilians in time of war was a duty sanctioned by the Torah - to be honest as far as I'm concerned those people are the scum of the earth. My reason for leaving Israel was a disgust at this type of blasmemous misuse of the Torah and a disinclination to have any more to do with a country where these types of attitude were becoming more and more acceptable. On my last visit around a year ago, I noted that such attitudes, in my time there held by a small vocal and growing minority, are now the attitudes of the majority of Israelis. Palestinian deaths do not matter, they are easy to justify even when it is a infant. You have become Der Herrenrass and they are the untermenschen.
lets be quite clear about the facts shall we Oleh. Since october 2000 we have seen the death of at least 1800 palestinian civilians as a result of action taken by the israeli army and air force. Of these 1800 only 5% have ever received a judicial investigation, and only 10% of these have ever resulted in conviction. The longest jail term ever given to a member of the IDF for murdering a palestinian during this period was 20 months, if you think that is a long sentence then I'm sorry I don't.
If you want to know what is really going on in the israeli judicial system I suggest you read the report I have provided a link to below. It was compiled by Human Rights Watch which is a non-political NGO addressing issues of human rights around the world.
http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/
if you believe the evidence in this report is incorrect, fine show me your evidence to disprove it. if you believe Human Rights Watch are just a raging bunch of anti-Semites, fine then show me your evidence for this too. Try to understand Oleh If you can't back up what you say with credible evidence then very few people here will ever take you seriously.
johnie clayton
I think your blog is extremely smart, thanks for writing it. The fact that people still view this as a 'both sides are to blame' sort of issue is absurd, the Palestinians are the clear victims regardless of how you frame the history.
I think your blog is excellent and I'm amazed at how you are so positive in light of such inhumanity and pain. The world I live in can't imagine this level of suffering.
I live in Kingston, Ontario - just outside of Toronto and I want to let you know that a lot of Canadians want to do something for the Palestinian people. Do you know anything about the Israeli-Canadian free trade agreement? Our government tells us that it benefits the Palestinians, but can this really be true? Would ending a trade agreement with Israel help Palestinians?
I'm not sure what to do/say, but thanks for writing this.
How many more israelis and palestinians have to die before both sides stop?
Are there any Palestinians reading this blog that will answer this question?
Are there any Israelis reading this blog that will answer this question?
There is plenty of time to act in a concrete immediate way to help the children of Gaza get fed. As I said in the comment section in Laila's 22 March 2006 post, my friend Barbara Lubin of the Middle East Children's Alliance (www.mecaforpeace.org) is collecting money =now= and sending it to Laila's aunt, who is working with Red Crescent.
https://secure.groundspring.org/dn/index.php?aid=1171
Do something now. Copy and paste the link above into your browser.
The problem is that Israel is very,very bad in Marketing.
I would like to know at which country,did this anom above lived....Because I lived in Israel about 15 years ago as well,and unfortnelly I had no opportunity to visit since them,but things were much,much better than know.
And you say that israel mixes Torah and Government?!?
Are the Arab countries democratics to you,anom?
I really do not know at which country have you been to.
At how many from the twenty two arab countries can the Jews just visit? What happened to the Jews in Iraq,Iran,Egypt? and so on?
What happened to their houses? To the sinagogues at those countries?
Why can´t any Jew even enter those countries?
Why is not permitted to any Jew even fly any Arab Airline?
Instead there´s a lot of muslims every day at El-Al (Israeli Airline)flying back and forth.
Whith a israeli passport of course.
Oleh and Olah,Kol Ha Kavod to answer all those people here,you should get a prize. You are really very patient.
And you my dear Anom, there´s no written anywhere in Thorah nor in Koran we should kill people,for any reason.
People just go crazy and tryed somehow to justify their madness.
Laila,take care,
So, how many more people have to die before Palestinians and Israelis sit down and negotiate?
How many more children have to be killed before everybody starts using the word PEACE in their schools?
Palestinians are the only group of refugees that have been refugees since 1948. Palestinians have been used as pawns by their own Arab brothers to msntain a conflict as scapegoats. How much longer do you want to play this game, how many more generations.....The israelis have absorved millons of refugees from Arab lands...........but Palestinians want to continue playing victims.
I don't understand this baloney I keep reading from commenters about how Jews aren't allowed in Arab/Muslim countries. Jews travel to Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Iraq...what the heck are you talking about? I know plenty of Jews who have made these trips.
Someone above actually had the spiritual vacuity to suggest that an unarmed 13-year-old girl was culpable for her own horrific murder, underscoring the correct comments of a few others here: that this world is sick.
There is so much sadness in the fact that Captain "R" is allowed to rejoin society. That he is then paid for what the commanding officer for the region spinelessly called "ethical conduct" (in the Guardian article)...it's just too much!
Thank you. I kept Chris's Guardian story as my entry into the Guardian newspaper, and always wondered how that story had ended.
Mr Johnie Clayton, a NGO is, by definition political. They are sponsored by organizations and people with specific political views. E.g, the NGO that sponsored and paid for British lawyers to obtain arrest warrants for certain Israeli officers on the charges of war crimes. Human Rights Watch is natorious for criticizing Israeli practices and not doing the same for other countries that have long histories of human rights violations. E.g. the Palestinian Authority. Namely, the reason is because Israel is a democratic and open society which allows for a free and open press while other countries do not exercize such a luxury, so groups like HRW aren't exactly able to get the 411 on what's happening there.
Can you also please provide a source for your statistics? Secondly, does your report distinguish between militants and terrorists killed and citizens? Would you please elaborate on the reasons so many "citizens" get killed? I mean, October 2002 was the height of the Intifada, so let's keep things in perspective.
And, I'm very glad to know that almost none of you will give me a straight answer. So, keir, you believe that this man is a murderer even though he was acquited? He was acquited because his soldiers lied about him to take out revenge on him. He was NOT acquited based on the reasons laila stated. She is giving an untruthful account of events. I don't even know why I am surprised that you believe that Israelis, namely Jews, are a bunch of evil murdering blood mongers who lure children out of their houses with candy so they can shoot them. Then, the Israeli courts cover it up and release those charged with the "crime". IF that's the truth, why would Israel bother having a trial in the first place?
You know, why don't you look at the picture of the 2 month year old baby that was shot in the head by a terrorist. How do they justify it? Well, the kid would end up being a soldier anyway, so he was fair game. Why don't you show pictures of what Palestinians do to their own people if they even have the slightest inclination that they're "collaborating" with Israel? Absolutely pathetic. You know, I think if we ask nicely, the people over at Auschwitz and Treblinka and the like would have no problem turning the gas chambers and ovens back on. We could solve this whole problem very quickly.
-OC
what is this blog about?
Is it about a possible dialogue between warring sides?
Is it about not accepting responsibility by any side?
Is it about being a victim?
Is it about being an oppressor?
What is the intent of Laila?
What is the intent of the participants?
Anon, my intent is to make sure that both sides are being told and to attempt to get the truth out there. Or, at the very least, try to get people to actually think about what's really going on. I don't believe it's right for people to bash a people simply based on propaganda and misinformation they've heard from some website. To truly be informed, you must know the full truth. As Ecclesiastes states, "Those who increase wisdome increase sorrow". It's easier to live in a bubble, believing the Jews are a bunch of murdering monsters and that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is actually true than to open your eyes and actually learn something.
-OC
Simona,
your not an anti-semite but you start you comment with "They're legalized the "state terrorism"! "
If all you are reading is the Palistinian blogs, what makes you any better than those who you claim only report the Israeli side (although very false indeed)? do you visit Israeli blogs as well to see how the people in Israel feel?
Dear olah chadasha
You say - 'Human Rights Watch is by definition political'
If you look at their website you will see - Human Rights Watch's only political stance is that Human Rights should apply universally to all people irrelevant of faith or nationality or ethnic origin. tell me olah is this something you agree with or do you think you're special?
You say - "Human Rights Watch is natorious for criticizing Israeli practices and not doing the same for other countries that have long histories of human rights violations. E.g. the Palestinian Authority"
If you look at their website you will see - that it has made numerous criticisms of the PA and of Hamas and of other militant/terrorist groups operating within the occupied territories as well as some 200 other countries around the world.
You say - "groups like HRW aren't exactly able to get the 411 on what's happening there."
if you look at the report it states that - "It is based on more than 150 interviews with victims, families, military officials, nongovernmental organizations, and intergovernmental groups. It also draws from meetings and written correspondence with the IDF from 2001 to 2005, as well as public statements and legal submissions by government officials."
You say - "does your report distinguish between militants and terrorists killed and citizens?"
of course it does olah, but you wouldn't know that would you because you haven't read it.
I put to you the same question olah "if you believe the evidence in this report is incorrect or if you believe Human Rights Watch are just anti-Semites fine show me your evidence to prove it."
The problem is olah you don't have any 'credible evidence' do you, you don't even have an informed opinion, all you really have is a very narrow minded belief system based on you own anger and hatred which you empty on to the pages of this blog in the vain hope that someone will take you seriously, well good luck mate!
so solitarioh let me see if I can summarize your position correctly here. your basis for disregarding the Human rights watch report is as follows:
Human rights watch criticizes israel but ignores other conflicts around the world which result in greater number of deaths like Chechnya and Sudan.
Well I went back to the Human rights watch website to check and there is in fact a vast quantity of information relating to both Chechnya and Sudan. try to understand these basic principles here solitarioh; 1. you don't have to kill someone to abuse their human rights 2. you cannot justify abuses of human rights by israel on the basis that other countries manage to kill more people doing the same thing.
You direct us to a Human rights watch summary document "http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/israel.html" and imply that since it does not include information on the report by John F. Burns in the New York Times August 2 2000 on summer training camps for palestinian teenagers then this must be solid evidence that Human rights watch is biased. Well the document in question is a summary and omits quite a few things such as the fact that at this point in time the IDF where using 17 year olds in active military service and using Palestinian of any age they could get there hands on as human shields during military operations.
You make the grotesque comparison between the killing of civilians in the OCCUPIED territories and the allied bombing of germany during the WAR.
inferring that Israel has no responsibility for the death of palestinian civilians as they are "victims of their own leadership".
the truth is solitarioh despite 3 long posts you haven't provided any actual evidence that disputes the findings of the Human rights watch report [ http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/ ] or that the organization itself is anti-semitic.
just like Oleh you don't have an informed opinion, all you really have is a very narrow minded belief system based on you own anger and hatred, you cling to information which backs these beliefs up and ignore information that doesn't. Any concept you have that either you or israel exists on a moral high ground in this conflict is simply ignoring of reality of what is happening. I pity you for your ignorance solitarioh I really do.
johnie, I pity you for having to call other people names in the place of attempting to use reason and intelligence to make your argument. Here's the deal: Either, there is a conflict going on or there isn't. If there is a war going on, then civilians accidently killed in the act of war are unfortunate casualities of war and sol made an absolutely relevent comparison. You will also understand that the terrorists and gun-men who are fighting amongst civilian populations are violating every Geneva Convention and article of war that is in existence. Then, you would say, that like in war, the Israeli soldiers returned fire is in the act of self-defense.
If you have the premise that this is population simply resisting a controversial "occupation", then you can believe that Israeli soldiers are simply going into Palestinian towns and viciously and randomly shooting civilians. Basically, just closing their eyes and opening fire on innocent people. This is the track that HRW has taken. So, you are free to do the same opinion. They fail to report on official text-books being used in Palestinian schools, which teach hatred and a Muslim's relgious duty to commit jihad and shaheedism against the evil Jews via math questions (e.g. If there 10 Jews on a bus, and you blow up and kill 5 of them, how many are left? I remember another time when a society used that kind of indoctrination on their youth), reading comprehension, and maps which do not show Israel but Palestine covering all of where Israel should be (this practice is illegal, as declared by the UN and every peace agreement signed b/t Israel and the PA). They fail to report that the PA use the selling of t-shirts, childrens' games, etc in order to indocrinate children into hatred, the summer camps being used to train children to kill, the fact taht children are given guns and told to go kill Jews, that children's shows and music videos on TV praise suicide bombers and terrorists and encourage children to follow in the martyr's foot-steps, how the school plays put on are re-enactments of martyrdom missions, Quranic stories of the slaughter of Jews. Would you like me to go on? I haven't even gotten into what the PA does to their own people in lieu of fair trials and police stating. In Israel, all school text-books, which discuss the peace process, talk constantly about the desire for peace and that peace must be made. I suggest you visit www.pmw.org.
I believe you need to take your own advice and learn all the information involved. It seems you are the one who is ignoring information that does not conform with your beliefs. If you knew the reality, you would never be able to say that Israel does not hold the platform in morality here. You're simply wrong, but you can believe whatever you want. I'm sure it helps you sleep.
-OC
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8391A64A-44D7-4C54-B57A-6E4BB38DD02A.htm
Or: http://tinyurl.com/lks4r
"The shooting was documented on video by an Israeli cameraman and screened on Israel's Channel 2 television. In that video, the soldiers identified the victim as a girl about 10 years old and said she was "scared to death".
Another soldier is heard saying "our forces are attacking her", and a lookout says "one of the positions has taken her down".
In the same video, Captain R is heard saying "we operated on her. Yes, it seems she has been hit". He later stated that he "verified" the killing and added: "Anyone that moves in the zone, even if it is a 3-year-old boy, should be killed."
OK Olah, for yours everyone else's benefit lets see if we can inject some 'reason and intelligence' as you put it.
1. I haven't called anyone on this blog any 'names' other than their own. What I have done is suggest that some individuals are ignorant and narrow minded, this is not an act of calling someone a 'name', it is an opinion on their point of view. Are you able to understand the difference?
2. you are correct in your assumption that I know very little about the palestinian or israeli education system, which is why at no point in any of my posts have I made any judgments on them. My point is this if HRW has criticized organizations around the world including the PA and Hamas how can you use its failure to criticize the PA education system as proof positive that HRW is anti-semitic
3. to suggest that HRW believes the IDF are "just closing their eyes and opening fire on innocent people" is neither reasonable or intelligent it is simply a lie. what HRW suggest in the report [http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iopt0605/] is that the standard of investigations carried out when palestinian civilians are killed is so appalling that anyone in the IDF who does choose to murder a palestinian civilian, can be pretty much 99% sure that they will never be convicted for doing so, an accusation that nobody here, including yourself seem able to provide factual evidence to disprove.
WHEN AND HOW IS THIS MADNESS GOING TO STOP?
A LIFE IS A LIFE, ISRAELI OR PALESTINIAN.
johnie, there's no point in carrying this any further because you admitted one simple thing. You don't know all the information and are basing your assumptions or beliefs, or whatever you want to call them, on one source. And, by calling some-one narrow minded and the like is calling some-one a name. And, you have some nerve to call some-one when you don't have all teh information sitting in front of you, yourself. You used an organization like HRW because you have a biased opinion, yourself, on what Israeli soldiers are like. "when some-one in the IDF does CHOOSE to murder a Palestinian civilian..." Israel has been credited as being one of most introspective and investigatory armies in the world. They are very open about investigating possible wrong doings. Don't you profess to know what the IDF does or does not do. My entire family is in the Army and has been for more than 20 years. I know what's going on. If in 99% of the cases, the Israeli courts chooses to let a soldier go without investigation of a murder, then I guess this trial was just a fluke, right? A 1 in 100 chance of happening. Again, the HRW does NOT distinguish between civilian and militant. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps, just maybe, 99 out of 100, if those numbers are even correct which I doubt, of those people killed are actually terrorists, so there is no need for investigation? And, that those 1 out of every 100 cases are civlian casualties necessitating further investigation?
No, I suppose you don't. You believe 18 year boys choose to kill little children for sport. You cling to your HRW "reports". I'll trust the men and women on the ground who are fighting for their lives every day.
-OC
Olah...
you claim i said 'i admitted one simple thing. You don't know all the information and are basing my assumptions on beliefs'
What I actually said was "I know very little about the palestinian or israeli education system, which is why at no point in any of my posts have I made any judgments on them"
you say "You used an organization like HRW because you have a biased opinion"
What factual evidence do you have (other than their failure to make any judgments on the Palestinian education system) that HRW are biased?
you say "Israel has been credited as being one of most introspective and investigatory armies in the world. They are very open about investigating possible wrong doings."
very simple question here Olah, credited by whom? and when? where is the source?
you say "HRW does NOT distinguish between civilian and militant"
exactly where on this or any other HRW report does it say that "HRW does NOT distinguish between civilian and militant"? exactly where is your evidence to back this statement up?
I appreciate its a little late in the evening Olah but if this is your idea of using 'reason and intelligence to make your argument' I'm disappointed. You claim that I cling to HRW, what I actually cling to is evidence that to the best of my knowledge is unbiased and accurate. If you can answer some of the questions above in a 'factual' manner and providing your own unbiased and respected sources information to back up what you say then maybe I will start to question what HRW have written. Go on Olah, give it your best shot.
ok Olah and Sol (if you don't mind me calling you that?)
I am going to make an apology... I regret describing you both as having a "very narrow minded belief system based on you own anger and hatred'. It is an extremely provocative statement and given that I do not know either of you that well it is perhaps unfair.
now back to business Sol
with respect I can see your evidence very clearly. Essentially what you are saying is that because a summary report written by HRW in 2000 did not include information palestinian summer camps, then HRW must be biased and a report written some 5 years later on the standard of investigations carried out by israel with regard to the deaths of Palestinian civilians must therefore be worthless.
It's a bit like me saying in a speech given by an israeli politician in 2000 he didn't provide full information about one particular subject, therefore I believe everything he has said since is not worth listening to. it's just not a strong argument.
Now Sol...
I have never suggested that "palestinians are well served, hating israel." nor have I ever condoned a piece of music with the title "I hate Israel , I Hate Israel ?".
I am glad you say "I do not hate anyone. That is why its its nonsense to have a narrow vision based in hatred" I whole heartedly support this. But Sol, if you want me to treat you with respect on this blog please do not suggest I have expressed views which I clearly have not.
Johnnie, since sol is doing very nicely in my stead, I will only hone in on one simple point. The report doesn't have to say that they don't distinguish between militant and civilian. By the very fact that they don't make a seperation, as many of these organizations do NOT do, in their statistics, they are making it very clear that they do NOT distinguish between militants/terrorists and civilians when they give the statistics of the numbers killed. It is especially wanting since the study you refer to was, as I've said before, conducted in October of 2002, which was the height of the Intifada. Do you understand what that means? Answer that for me. Secondly, the HRW fails to report the fact that children were used in the construction of weapons tunnels in the Gaza Strip. Many of them died from collapse and asphyxiation. I don't see that in their report. When an organization fails to make those kinds of reportings, then there is a bias problem in that organization, based on that point alone. Here's the bottom line, and that I will consider this argument closed. Israel is by no means a perfect government. No government is perfect. There is always flaws that need fixing. But, to use a doubel standard and condemn on and ignore the practices of the other is condemnable and not worthy of any serious consideration and time. As I've stated before, either you accept the fact that Israel is in a war, and there will inevitably be civilian casualties in that war. Especially, when they're fighting against an enemy who engages in battle in the middle of town streets and amongst civilians, in violation of ever Geneva and international code of conduct for war. And, the fact that your report came out at the height of fighting. Or, you accept the opinion that this is only a resistance battle carried out against Israeli soldiers by innocent gune-men, who gets categorized as civilians in these reports because they are not put in seperate categoties.
However, in comparison to other places, Israel is extremely introspective in how it conducts itself and has a very good record of investigating practices that deserve investigation. One very good example is when the little Palestinians boy was killed at the beginning of the Intifada, the Israeli Army and government jumped to apologize and said an investigation would be carried out before anything was determined. Of course, numerous independent investigations carried out on top of Israel's that Israel was not at fault for his death, and, that it is most likely the boy was gunned down by a fellow Palestinian.
Now, here's an open and free democracy that is open to such things: At Hamas' swearing into government today, they screamed "The Qu'ran is our Constitution. Jihad is our way, and dying for Allah is our highest ambition". Yup, did HRW pick up on that. You know, the fact that the Palestinian Chrisitians are persecuted on a daily basis by their Arab counter-parts and are on their way to becoming second class citizens in their own towns. Haven't seen a report on that done by the HRW. Here's my point. If you want to cling to one report to confirm your belief that Israel is bad and evil and guns down Palestinian civlians at random or whenever they feel like it, then just admit it, be honest, and move on.
-OC
Dear Sol
thank you for response, I take on board the things you have said but still feel that there are a number of questions that remain unanswered. I would like to do a little more research, provide a considered response to your points and continue the discussion at some point later on in the week perhaps as pressure of work means I am unable to do so at the moment. who knows maybe we will find some common ground.
Dear Olah
"The report doesn't have to say that they don't distinguish between militant and civilian. By the very fact that they don't make a seperation, as many of these organizations do NOT do, in their statistics, they are making it very clear that they do NOT distinguish between militants/terrorists and civilians when they give the statistics of the numbers killed."
The cases highlighted in the report make very clear distinctions between civilians and militants, have you actually read it?
"HRW fails to report the fact that children were used in the construction of weapons tunnels in the Gaza Strip. Many of them died from collapse and asphyxiation"
an interesting point but where can I find information to back it up?
"Israel is extremely introspective in how it conducts itself and has a very good record of investigating practices that deserve investigation"
you keep repeating this but again you fail to provide any information to back up what you are saying? how can I take you seriously?
"you want to cling to one report to confirm your belief that Israel is bad and evil and guns down Palestinian civlians at random or whenever they feel like it, then just admit it, be honest, and move on"
I have to say I really resent this one Olah, I mean if you believe that I think Israel is bad and evil then that would make me what, an anti-semite, is that what your trying to say Olah, because if it is I can assure you it's not an accusation I will take lightly. Everyone says things from time to time without fully considering the implications of their words, including me. I had the decency to admit this earlier and apologize for some of the comments I made to you, I hope you will have the decency to do the same to me.
Johnnie, OK, you're thorough, allow me to do the same. I'll address the children used to construct tunnels for weapons smuggling. First of all, there are eye-wittness acounts; both by soldiers and Palestinian civilians. Also, the horrific images of small children being pulled out, dead, from tunnels were shown on the news. After thorough investigations, The Ministry of Foreign Affairs put together a comprehensive report on how, who, and all the other details on how these smuggling tunnels work. You can see the report at:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/Weapon+Smuggling+Tunnels+in+Rafah+May+2004.htm
In fact, even in the face of all the facts, HRW has, instead of reporting the horrific details of exploiting children to dig these tunnels reported that (because HRW are, of course, made up of military strategists and tacticians) criticized ISRAEL for their methods of detroying the tunnels. I've read the report! Instead of going into the human rights violations of a) using children to construct the tunnels b) using civlian houses as transportation points c) numerous times, Israeli soldiers uncovered that the entrance and exit points of tunnels were dug under childrens' beds because, as captured terrorists have admitted, they believed that the IDF would be less likely to destroy the tunnels if they were hidden under childrens' beds. NOT ONE MENTION OF THESE FACTS IN HRW'S report. They only say that the IDF's methods of destroying the houses under which these tunnels were built were human rights violations. Very fair and balanced if you ask me.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/rafah1004/1.htm
What? You don't believe that after everything else the Palestinians have done in exploiting and purposely putting their citizens and young in harm's way, you can't accept that they would also exploit their children for their evil ends?
Let's move on. I don't know if you get your news only from sites like HRW or al-jazeera, but the news frequently reports when the Israeli government calls for investigation behind the circumstances of a Palestinian civilian's death. You want me to find all those news articles for you, that's fine.
But, that is exactly why I made the comment I did, and, sorry, I do not see any reason to apologise. You have frequently made comments like "Israli soldiers 'choosing' to kill Palestinians", "The Israeli courts and army don't care when Palestinians are close and in 99% of the cases will not investigate their murders", etc. You have made comments to the effect that you automatically believe the worst about Israeli soldiers, and that Captain "R" is a murderer but was acquitted anyway, but even had he been convicted, he wouldn't have done any jail time because soldiers who kill Palestinians are, in essense, are rewarded and not punished. Tell me I'm wrong. Because you've made it very clear: You assume the worst about Israel, and believe that heinous accusations are automatically true. You want proof to show that Palestinian terrorists are committing human rights violations, and if HRW hasn't reported them, then they must not be true. Prove to me that I have made the wrong inferrence, and I will whole-heartedly apologise.
-OC
http://www.btselem.org/english/Publications/Summaries/200505_Take_No_Prisoners.asp
"According to B’Tselem’s figures, since the beginning of 2004, Israelis security forces have killed eighty-nine Palestinians during operations that the defense establishment refers to as arrest operations. At least seventeen of the persons killed were not wanted by Israel, but were civilians who were not suspected by Israel of having committed any offense. In addition, at least forty-three of those killed were unarmed, or were not attempting to use their arms against Israeli security forces at the time they were killed. None of these cases were investigated by the Military Police investigation unit."
Dear Olah, at last weblinks to back up your argument... thank you
firstly what i said was
"anyone in the IDF who does choose to murder a palestinian civilian, can be pretty much 99% sure that they will never be convicted for doing so". that is a direct quote not the paraphrased version you provided.
It comes a very long way from suggesting that all or even many of the IDF are murderers and most certainly doesn't suggest that I hate israel. What it does suggest is that I am critical of israeli investigations procedures nothing more. Like I said I had the decency to apologize to you for assuming that you hated Palestinians I expect the same from you.
Secondly, After taking on board some of sol's comments I do now believe that it is a mistake for me to claim that HRW is 100% percent unpolitical and 100% balanced in the subjects that it reports, because nobody ever truly is. The important thing to ask is just how biased are they, but most importantly what evidence is presented and is it compelling and credible and can it be refuted.
The 2 sources of information you have provided to me during the course of this discussion are "the israeli ministry of foreign affairs" and "Palestinian media watch". I haven't disputed any of the information provided by these sources, but are you really trying to suggest that they are less political and less balanced than the output from HRW? because if you are i will simply laugh at you.
I repeat the same point I have made a number of times on this, can you actually dispute the evidence that is contained in the report. You said at the beginning of this discussion, and I quote you directly "But I also know plenty of casses where the court did sentance people to long term Jail time for killing/murdering Palestinians" if this is true then It should be a very simple matter for you to provide me with the information on these people, which will clearly contradict the findings of the report. please go ahead, if you do I will even take the matter up with HRW and ask them why these cases have been omitted.
thirdly, you ask me where I get my news from Olah i'll tell you.. I primarily get news related to this conflict form Israeli news sources like Haaretz and the Jerusalem post. I also check Reuters, the BBC, the guardian, The New York Times, the Washington Post, Prospect Magazine, CNN, HonestReporting, B'Tselem, amnesty international, the un commission for humanitarian affairs, and the institute of international affairs in london and yes I also look at HRW and at least one a week Aljazeera. I don't claim that these sources are unbiased and unpolitical the world is not that simple, but if you believe this represents a diet of anti-Israeli hatred then I'm sorry I beg to differ.
I see that the Bobsy twins are here and willing to promote the Zionist view.
This still doesn't explain the killing of young girls by Zionist soldiers (over 17 times in one case).
The Bobsy twins are making me more of a convert to anti-Israeli views than their accusations of Palestanian aggretions.
Protect Israel at all costs. Condemn the Palestinians at all costs.
Ok kimmy I know you mean well, but I have to tell you that the man who allegedly killed Iman Al-Hams wasn't jewish he was Druze and therefore not a zionist. I'm on a 'long haul' with Olah on this one she has pretty much painted herself into a corner by being unable to back up a couple of key statements that she has made?
Isn't that right Olah?
He who wins the war writes the history.
The Zionists are writing the history even though they haven't won the war.
The Bobsy twins are using this argument.
17teens times does not excuse the military.
I am right, you are wrong, is a waste of argument.
The past is the past. Let us work on the future!
Wow, shaggy, you must be a pretty pathetic person if all you do is personally bash other people instead of bringing any intellectual discussion to the conversation. It's one of the most disgusting displays of stupidity I've ever seen.
Kimmy, you are also made of the shaggy stupid variety. Maybe, you're the same person. With every comment you make, your ignorance shines more and more through. Those zionists you speak have actually won, hmmmm...., let's see now, at least 5 wars. Open up a history book. Oh that's right! They're all written by a bunch of zionists, so they aren't true. Doh!!
This girl was killed by palestinians (honor killing) It happened many times in Gaza in the past. This is how they get rid of an extra mouth to feed and get money from Hamas.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mike,
one correction,
Druze are not Muslim, Actually they are not even Arab. They are in conflict with the Muslims (suprise). More than that, Since the creation of Israel, is the first time Any druze has enjoyed Equal rights under law (Israeli law), and have not had to fear for thier lifes, or worry about their faith.
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