Beware the ides of March (aka How to secure an Israeli election in just ten hours)
I should have known. A stunt so frequent as to be banal. March 14-a day before Ceasar’s fabled assassination, and just 13 days before the Israeli elections.
Suddenly, seemingly out of no where, Jericho, the oldest city in the world, and the Marxist-Leninist PFLP, one of the oldest Palestinian national organizations, are dramatically thrust onto the world stage (in the PFLP's case, after a long absence and being overshadowed by Hamas).
With tanks and bulldozers and helicopter gunships, Israeli military forces besieged the Palestinian prison in the otherwise sleepy desert town-just 30 minutes after American and British observers left their posts (citing concerns that prisoners were allowed to use "cell phones"...hmmm...how "convenient" for Israel that the observers should choose to be bothered and concerned within an hour of Israel's seige)- ultimately seizing six of it’s the most wanted inmates holed up inside.
Most prominent among them- Ahmed Saadat, held in the Jericho prison in a deal that involved American and British observers, without ever standing trial. He was accused of overseeing the assassination of Israeli tourism Minister, and self-declared ethnic cleanser who referred to Palestinians as “lice” and “cancer”, Rehavam Ze'evi, in retaliation for Israel's extra-judicial assasination of its leader Abu Ali Mustafa (Mustafa al-Zibri) in August 2001.
Interestingly, Ze’evi was founder of the Moledet Party-an extremist, ultra-nationlist party that openly called for the transfer of all Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza, and for the annexation of Jordan-even after its 1994 peace deal with Israel. Yet Ze’evi served as an Israeli cabinet minister nonetheless, without so much as a peep from either the US or the EU.
To quote Ali Abunimah of the Electronic Intifada:
“How is it that a proud, boastful ethnic cleanser like Ze'evi could sit in the Israeli cabinet with Ariel Sharon and Nobel Prize winner Shimon Peres for years and not one of those Western officials who today threaten the Palestinians with an end to all aid for electing Hamas uttered not one single word? Why is it acceptable for the US Congress to hand over billions of dollars to an Israel whose government ministers advocate ethnic cleansing? How is it that instead of demanding the arrest of the murderers of Abu Ali Mustafa and thousands of other Palestinians, Britain and the US collude with Israel to commit new crimes under international law?”
The tireless Uri Avneri attacked the siege as a pre-election ploy by Olmert, saying the 2001 Ze'evi assassination was no different than an Israeli-style "targeted killing".
According to a friend who was at the scene before herself being arrested, the military destroyed one building of Jericho muqatta with tank and Apache shells. And they made sure all the prisoners were in one internal room, in the courtyard which journalists couldn’t see. They then brought a crane and tore down the wall of the room the prisoners were in while they were in it.
To quote Abunimah again: “The ease and impunity with which the occupation forces attack Palestinians everywhere serves to remind us that these territories remain today, as they have been since 1967, under full Israeli military dictatorship.”
Abunimah goes on: “While there is silence about the attacks in Jericho, there is also silence and inaction as Israel announced that Ariel, a huge colony in the heart of the West Bank, is to be annexed, and Israel began building a new occupation forces "police station" east of Jerusalem, the first step in massively expanding the settlement of Ma'ale Adumim. Israel… acts not only with impunity but with the active support of western powers who promise to starve its victims while quaking in fear at uttering a single word of criticism.”
Aljazeera carried live exclusive footage of the siege, and events were happening very fast. Angry protestors from the PFLP poured out onto Gaza’s streets. They attacked symbols of what they perceived as foreign collusion: the British Council (a cultural center) was partially burned, and the office of Amideast, which is in the building right next door to me, was briefly stormed, and its windows shattered. They called a general strike, as stores closed their doors.
Machine-gun fire ripped through the air just as Israeli drones whirred incessantly above, and Israeli artillery shells continued to pound Eastern and Northern Gaza, shaking my entire building. Plumes of black smoke from burnt tires and vehicles could be seen rising in Gaza’s skies.
All this, of course, just as Israel sealed off Gaza from all sides once again, shutting the Rafah terminal after EU observers left, and sealing off the al-Mintar commercial crossing, whose closure has already resulted in millions of dollarsin losses to the Palestinian economy.
PFLP legislator Khalida Jarrar, like most people here, expressed disbelief and anger at the attack in an interview, telling me that Palestinians need international protection, and cannot rely on agreements with Israel:
“These are political prisoners being held inside a Palestinian prison. And they attacked them with tanks and helicopters as if they were armed. This demonstrates that such agreements that are signed with the Israelis with so-called American and British monitors do not guarantee the safety and lives of the prisoners. And the Israeli occupation will continue with its policies regardless. Only by bringing an end to the occupation can we truly be protected. “
posted by Laila @ Wednesday, March 15, 2006
38 Comments:
A few comments.
1) Hypocrisy stinks. You live in a territory with no Jews, celebrate that fact, and call Ze'evi an "ethnic cleanser" for wanting a state with no Arabs. Ze'evi, of course, did not want this because he was a racist who hated Arabs, but because he concluded that the Arabs were so tied to terrorist murders of Jews that they couldn't share a country.
How many Arab states cleansed themselves of all Jews in 1948? And now you call someone who wants an all-Jewish state an ethnic cleanser? Palestinians, on the other hand, were told to leave Israel by the invading Arab armies in 1948, who promised that they would be able to return to a Jew-free state in a few months. Instead Palestinians have sat in refugee camps for 50 years with no Arab assistance or repatriation. Like I said, hypocrisy stinks.
2) Abu Ali Mustafa was planning a terrorist attack when he was murdered; plans that were disrupted by his death. This was acknowledged by PA sources as well as Israeli. Ze'evi had no such plans, and was murdered in cold blood. Israel has never conducted a targeted killing of someone not in the near term planning stages of a terrorist attack upon innocent women and children. What would you do if you knew someone was planning to murder Yousef while he played in your kitchen? More hypocrisy, it seems.
3) Your claim that Ahmed Saadat never stood trial is false. In fact, it may not be possible to try him in Israel for the murder of Ze'evi: "Legal experts have said that because the inmates were already tried in a Palestinian court, it was possible that the most Israel could do was detain them until the end of their PA-court-dictated sentences."
4) Your attempt to set this up as some sort of US-Israel collusion falls in the face of the facts. The American and UK monitors, who were watching over these murderers in accordance with agreements, warned the PA on March 8 that unless the PA started observing its agreements and insuring the safety of the monitors, the monitors would leave and the agreement would fall.
5) Israel went in after the agreement fell. A murder was committed on Israeli soil and Israel -- according to the Oslo accords -- had every right to demand the extradition of the murderers. The PA has never honored an extradition request.
6) The Rafah crossing is open only when EU monitors are there. The EU monitors ran away because they are afraid of being kidnapped by the PFLP terrorists flourishing in your wonderful state run by a "warm," "soft" individual who just happens to believe that the state of Israel should be eliminated, and all its (Jewish) residents murdered or expelled.
Go ahead, keep blaming Israel. But the source of the problems is a lot closer to home.
within minutes of the monitors leaving Israel is there with bulldozers & tanks? That was fast & convenient, they must have tipped off the monitors to leave!
"Only by bringing an end to the occupation can we truly be protected. “
I wholeheartedly agree, they & the rest of the world need to give Palestine a chance to run itself. But with Israel undermining their chances, it will never happen!!
hmm... would you stay in the Area if you were getting threats to your life?? it seems Mr Straw - asked Abu Maazen a few weeks ago to do something about it. This is the same Abu Maazen that said he was going to release Saadat. I love the way peace works in this Area - As long as Israel is wrong, or if Jews are dying then we have peace!
Laila - The truth is this is going to have very little effect on the up coming elections. Kadima (Olmert's party) is still in the lead in the polls (as it's been for the past few months) and no one really cares about the elections here. He simply did what any Israeli leader would have done under the same cicumstances.
I hate to say it but we are not at peace with the PA. we are in conflict and that means we can use our Army in order to achieve military goals. Bringing Assasins to Justice is one was to use that force. Amazingly these Blood thirsty Israeli Killers managed to go Into a City in the middle of the day get the Job done with Minimal Casulties from Both sides (I think 2 Pals were killed trying to shoot at the IDF - what we call Legitaite Targets according to Int. Law!!)
Last but not least - the use of force yesterday came after we asked them to come out peacfully (once again those who did were not harmed - over 100 of them), and the answer the army got was "over my dead body"
It's almost funny how those who scream the loudest about never giving up and fighting it out to the end are always the ones that end up comming out with their hands up. I guess It's better to let someone else die in "glory" and Shaheedism than be one them sleves.
For all of the tough line taken in the above comments, I think it's extraordinary to find you offering an open forum to discuss these things.
At some point, I hope you will realize that while someone like Ismael Haniya would prefer to see my infant daughter dead, no one in a position of power on the Israeli side feels the same about your Yousef. Please don't let him grow up trained to hate, to the level that he wants Israelis dead.
Anonymous of 6:09 pm -- yes the Israelis were there within minutes, or at least hours. They got copies of the March 8 letter so they knew the agreement was about to fall. Then the monitors drove out of the jail right into Israeli territory, waving good bye to the Israeli soldiers at the checkpoint. Not rocket science.
The Israelis managed to do the whole thing without harming anyone who wasn't shooting at them.
Seven days ago Abbas said he would release these guys. If he was going to break the accord, he can't hold Israel to it.
Dear Laila,
Thanks for covering this, beautifully as always. I'm sorry to hear about your friend who was arrested, and hope she'll be all right. It seems like a puzzlingly destabilising move for the Foreign Office and Americans to take during the formation of the Palestinian government and in the leadup to Israeli elections. Would you say this is a sign Olmert believes Kadima is weaker on its right flank than its left? Particularly as it comes soon after the floating of Ami Ayalon for the defence portfolio, it seems a curious combination of signs - unless it's just an attempt to give a small something to all constituencies. pxx
One person, one vote.
That's what I tell people who go on and on about Oh isn't it tragic, the =cycle= of =violence=, the heartbreaking story of Isaac and Ismael, blah blah blah.
Meanwhile, Israel invades Jericho with impunity
Did anyone aside from the Afrikaners seriously consider a "two-state solution" for apartheid-era South Africa?
Just finished reading Dan Dor's (Dept of Communications Tel Aviv University) about how Israeli's construct their whole identity a the poor victims of misunderstanding at an international level - their army so ethical, the Palestinians so malevolent - and all this despite the figures that show us who is top of the killing charts. The comments on this story really make a fascinating after study that backs his thesis 100%. Dear me, poor misunderstood little .... killers of more than 700 children in the last 5 years.
So, no Israeli's would like to see Yousuf killed. Well I wish I could believe that were true. I don't say that the majority do - though it seems to me that they've managed to shrug off the killing of plenty of other little ones as "collateral damage" - but I'm afraid that I know it isn't true. I've been to Hebron, you see and I've seen the graffitti, written in English presumably by some of the American illegal immigrants living there "Arabs to the Gas Chambers". Seems that the only criticism of Hitler appears to be his choice of ethnic group.
Get real. Both sides have their fanatics and these kind of actions are more likely than not to generate a few more on the Palestinian side.
cay, listen to what sara has to say. Her words are spoken as a person who actually knows history and doesn't spout rhetoric as fact or spew hatred with nothing but petulent lies behind it.
Israel/Palestine never belonged to any Palestinian. And, no war was started by any Jew that fled their native country to come here and live like any other human being. You should really learn your history. But, then, if you knew anything about what really happened here, you would have no leg to stand on when you spout hatred and anti-semetism.
Where was your hooing and hawing when Jordan occupied the West Bank, and Egypt controlled Gaza? Where was this screaming of horrific occupation when Egypt refused to maintain its control even when Israel offered to return it during their peace negotiations with Egypt? If all these Palestinian groups scream that there will be peace if Israel would return to the pre-1967 borders, then why were there terrorist attacks against Israel before 1967? Why were there terrorist attacks against Jews before there was even a state of Israel? Can you please explain that to me? Because I'm just stupified.
Can you explain to me why the Israeli population is composed of more than 20% non-Jews, but the Palestinians (and, for that matter, every Arab/Muslim country) has declared that their future state will be judenrein? That means, Jew-free, for those that don't know.
Maybe, you should take a moment to open your eyes and learn the real history of this country. You will see that not everything is so black and white or one sided. Or, maybe, just maybe, that those evil Jews and Zionists aren't really to blame for every blight in the world.
-OC
Umm...shaggy, where in that article, does it say that it's a play? "Sniper school" is a military training center for the Army. Have you ever heard of snipers in the Armed Forces? Yes, I know, it's a radical concept that was just invented yesterday. So, where's the school play that glorifies murder? Do you even realize how stupid you sound for trying to bring that as a rebuttal argument? I mean, c'mon!
-OC
It is illegal for Palestinians to move to Israel.
Shaggy,
Armed Forces are not for killing but for keeping alive, and if they have to - to kill someone in order to keep ones self alive then that is the price one has to pay.
Defending your own Country is a very honourable thing. Saving lives is the same. If for one Second during my 4 year long service, I would have thought that I am not helping Save the lives of hundreds if not thousend people, then I would not have been in it.
This concept that Army = Evil and that Soldiers = Killers is just Wrong. I did not go to the army to kill I went there to make sure that my family, friends, and All of the people in Israel can live a normal life.
I have no Idea Where you live, but I am happy to know that there are people out there right now who are making sure I can go to sleep tonight and know that I will wake up tomorrow morning and not have my enemies at my door.
I wish we could live in a world in which there is no need for An army or police, but I just don't see how that could be, and until we reach that great day - I will continue to think that protecting my country is an honourable thing!!!
The text of the letter to Abbas is as follows:
March 8, 2006
Mr. President:
The Palestinian Authority has never fully complied with basic provisions of the agreement that established the U.S. and UK Jericho Monitoring Mission.
While the six detainees -- Fuad Shobaki, Abmad Sa'adat, lyad Gholmi, Hamdi Qur'an, Majdi Rimawi and Basel alAsmar -- are held in continuous custody at the Jericho prison, the Palestinian Authority has consistently failed to comply with core provisions of the Jericho monitoring arrangements regarding visitors, cell searches, telephone access and correspondence.
Furthermore, the Palestinian Authority has failed to provide secure conditions for the U.S. and UK personnel working at the Jericho Prison. Repeated demarches by our governments to the highest levels of the Palestinian Authority have not resulted in improved compliance with the Jericho monitoring arrangements.
The pending handover of governmental power to a political party that has repeatedly called for the release of the Jericho detainees also calls into question the political sustainability of the monitoring mission.
If the Palestinian Authority would like the U.S. and UK to continue their involvement with the monitoring mission, conditions at the Jericho Prison must be brought into full compliance with the Jericho monitoring arrangements.
Alternatively, the Palestinian Authority can come to a new arrangement with the Government of Israel regarding the disposition of the six detainees. Likewise, adequate measures must be put in place to assure the security of the U.S. and UK personnel working at the prison.
Regrettably, if the Palestinian Authority does not come into full compliance with the Jericho monitoring arrangements and make substantive improvements to the security of the U.S. and UK personnel working at the prison, or come to a new agreement with the Government of Israel, we will have to terminate our involvement with the Jericho monitoring arrangements and withdraw our monitors with immediate effect.
I hope you understand our concerns and the seriousness with which we take this matter.
Signed,
Jake Walles, U.S. Consul General
John Jenkins, UK Consul General
Shaggy, I send my condolences to you for finding out that you're Jewish. You must be heart stricken at knowing that you belong to such an evil people. Would you like a Kadesh for you?
-OC
Shaggy,
Are you ashamed that The RAF bombed cities in Germany in WWII??
Yes, I agree that not every operation that is held by the IDF Works out the way we want it to. The big difference is that we are not aiming at them. We are not trying to kill the innocent. A person who is in the wrong place at the wrong time, doens't deserve to die but I am not ashamed when they do.
Have we made mistakes? Of course we have, but who doesn't? Are you going to tell me that The British Govt. has never done Anything wrong?? that every country is perfect?? Actually Will you tell me you never made ANY mistakes??? I won't comment on the Captain R subject because you will just say that I am lying. Also Using one Example to base an Argument is Very Weak.
As for Taking care of Pals. well there is a problem. Up until 1993 you are absolutly right and in fact we did and still have that, It's Called the "Minhal Ezrachi" (civil Administration) a unit in the Army that was in cahrge of the Civil services of the occupied ppl.
But! Since Oslo B It is not clear who is in control of what. The Area A and B for example were meant to be uder Pal. civil control not Israeli. But then they had to go and instead of taking responsability they decided to go to war with us.
We tend to forget what this Area looked like before The pals (and a lot of the Israeli Arabs) decided to go to War with Israel. That the pals lifes were alot better before that. The things like Road blocs were something pals saw for 3 seconds before crossing into Israel to go to work. That thier economic situation was a lot better, that they were able to move freely inside the west bank and between it and gaza, thouseds had work permits in Israel, that allowed to go wherever they wanted. There was not IDF in ANY of the Pal Cities, not even in any of the towns, they were see on the road like you would see a police car in England.
But that life was to good for them so they went and through it all away, and not they Bitch about how The Israeli Army is killing them (while Shooting at the Israeli Soldiers).
I thnk you should take that Birthright offer and come here and see for your self instead of feeding off Randome bits of info.
Also I am not sure how you conclude that by comming to Israel you hurt the pals. Just the oposite is true in fact: Since the Pal. "economy" is based almost soley on Israel, every dollor you dump on us has it's ripple effect on to them, so by supporting Israel you Support Pals. (scary thought I know.. but very true)
shaggy, last time I checked, teaching kids that defending their country is honorable is not propoganda. And, even if you can make that argument that it is, morally equating that with teaching children that it is their religious duty to blow themselves and/or die in the name of Allah by way of killing as many Jews as possible is in no way comparable. You are saying that the victim is as morally culpable as the perpetrator. Moral relativism is fun, especially when you view the world through the rose colored glasses that you have on. And, unlike these Palestinian schools which are state sanctioned to teach hatred and anti-semetism, these alleged "militia" academy are condemned by the vast majority of the Jewish population. We condemned the rare terrorist of Baruch Goldstein. We did NOT name a street or a city after him. We do not have a Martyr's Square dedicated to the handful of Jews who have committed terrorist acts.
So, next time you want to make moral relativst comparisons, make sure you have some real examples to back them up. Because, your follow-up post doesn't make you look any smarter or more knowledgeable than the first. Comparing teaching pride for the Armed Forces to teaching children to kill innocent civilians is, again, ridiculous and bordering on ridiculously stupid.
-OC
"Are you not ashamed of any actions (Israeli) security forces have committed against the Palestinians?"
A better question is: where is the shame of Palestinians who dance in the street to celebrate the deaths of others? What do such actions tell the world about Palestinian culture and society? When Israelis die in a suicide bombing (or multinationals die in the Twin Towers) I see the Palestinians celebrating with gleeful abandon in the streets, firing guns in the air and screaming with joy. What kind of people make a festival of other people's deaths?
As long as the Arab street (including the Palestinians) continues to act like mindless barbarian zealots, the rest of the world will not respect them or care if Israel executes their militias' leadership. The history of Palestinian suffering is real, but largely self-imposed as the Palestinians have allowed themselves to be the pawns of the British, the Syrians, the Jordanians, the Egyptians, the Marxists, the pan-Arab nationalists and now the Islamists.
Yes, Elizabeth, it is illegal NOW for Palestinians to move to Israel--since the outbreak of the Second Intifada and the almost daily suicide bombings of 2001 perpetrated by Palestinians against Israelis (some of whom were also Christian and Muslim but happened to be on the targeted bus or in the targeted shop). However, it wasn't always illegal and again, was a response to terror. And even now, there are exceptions made. On the other hand, it has ALWAYS been illegal for Jews to live in Jordan since the creation of the state. Jews were flung out of Egypt, Libya, and other Arab lands, despite having lived there for centuries. That is racism. That's why we struggle to have Israel--so we cannot again be the victims of arbitrary racist governments, whether Arab or European.
And all of this debate continues to obscure the point of Laila's post--which is the human face of the conflict. Palestinian mothers fear for their children's futures and well-being,and that is the hidden story that CNN and Al Jazeera DON'T pick up because they are too busy parsing international law, filming militants with guns in the streets, filming military action, looking at the broad stroke of history while ignoring the mothers and children who live amidst this battlefield. Israelis stand in line at checkpoints also--just to go shopping. Israeli mothers wonder every morning as their children get on the bus if those children will return home or die in a blazing fireball when a terrorist blows himself up. Israeli children fear that Ima won't come back alive from the souk because that's where mass murderers explode themselves--amidst the housewives and old men.
You debate this as if there is only one wrong and one right, and you are so blinded by your need to be politically right, that none of you can stop and feel the pain of mothers in these war-torn lands.
Shalom, Laila -- Allah guard you and yours.
My opthalmologist is Jewish, and he used to live in Saudi Arabia.
Sara,
You speak of the Palestinians as a group but then fail to understand when you are adressed as part of the Israeli group. A failing common to us all, but do try to overcome it.
You personally and your neighbours may have purchased your land, but much land has been confiscated. I was actually talking about the occupied territories in the West Bank where land has been confiscated, allegedly for security reasons - but then used to build Jewish only settlements. I'm not a military expert, but it seems to me that common sense would tell us that land confiscated for security purposes would be left empty to provide a buffer - instead civilian population of the occupying power is moved there - an offense under international law but also not a particularly good move if your aim is to guarantee the security of these civilians. It is more normal to move people away from hostile borders not to transfer them in to the middle of a population that is understandable hostile having lost its lands.
This was actually the occupation of other peoples land I was talking of, but if you really want to enter a discussion about the acquisition of land in Israel proper - fine. I can tell you that I have studied this issue extensively - including Israeli state archives - and around 10% of land in Israel was purchased either private or by institutions such as the Jewish National Fund. The remainder of land - much of it now in the hands of the Israel Land Agency was confiscated from its previous owners under the terms of the Absentee Properties Act 1950 by which the state tool control of land belonging to Palestinians who were absent from their lands either because they had become refugees outside Israel or because they had been moved by Israeli security forces to other parts of Israel. Most of this land is now under the management of the Jewish National Fund which leases the land to tenants - the funds statute prevents it leases to anyone who is not Jewish.
The Absentee Properties Act is not a relic of the past, by the way, it is still on the statute books and is currently being used to confiscate land in East Jerusalem from Palestinian owners who have had to move outside the city to build their homes because of the city administration policy of not granting building permits in the city to arabs. These people by moving outside the city have lost their Jerusalem resident status and are now deemed absent and their land can be confiscated.
shaggy,
I think I figured you out.
A. You Totally Ignore posts you cant deal with (hence my post about the Shame).
B. You Use the Concept of Strawman - Every time you find something that describes you in a bad light
C. you call everything that you don't agree with Shameful.
Instead Why don't you try dealing with the Issue at hand, you make Grand claims about Israel being such a bad country and back it up with half truth and whole lies. I didn't want to comment on the Captain R issue before and I don't want to now either - BUT, I want to know from you: Where was this kid shot? who shot him/her (I know the gender I want to know how much you REALLY know)? How old was the kid?? What was the Courts Answer at the end of the trial against R?? Can you give me other casses?? or did you read about this one and decide to use it to stain an Entire Nation. Because if we are going to do that I can find a thing or two that the British did wrong in thier great history (all around the world), and in fact some of which they were doing not to long ago.
"How many times in the last century did we see revolutions which became infinitely crueler then the regimes which they toppled?"
I fail to see where that plays a factor in this debate - Israel didn't Topple any Govt. The british Left. and If you are Reffering the Pals. Well Last time I checked they were Always Crueler than we are but then again we have not been toppled yet either (maybe some wishfull thinking on your part).
And to Answer you Question again NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am not ahamed at my Army, I am not ashamed at my country, I love this country and I love the Fact that I am standing up for my right of self Defence!!! So please Stop asking that stupid Question, it's tireing!! Read what I wrote above in regards to this.
"what lesson to use live rounds on Palestinians " - and what would you use agianst your enemy that shoots at you??
Since My Wife (olah) and I are so dumb, can YOU Pleast explain what a terrorist Act is?? It would be helpful so that we can all talk on the same page. Thanks.
Abu Shaar - Pals. is just short for Palestinians, Just like I would use U.s. or UK. or EU or UN - no offense intended. Don't try to look for Semantics if you want to deal with the issue at hand by all means.
As for the remark made about Pals. Becomeing Israelies - I wasn't going to Answer it because It was a really Stupid Statement - but then someone went and Gave a wrong Answer, so for the sake of keeping the truth here:
There is no Law In Israel that says the Pals. cannot become Israeli Citizens. If that were the case how is it that we gave the Arabs of E. Jerusalem citizenship in 1967 (after Reuniting the city). In addition there is a law in Israel about Joining Famalies - Meaning if and Israeli Arab Marries a Pal. they can apply for citizenship for the non-Israeli Spous, and their kids are Automatecly Israeli. Futhermore - This has never Stopped even During the Intifadah.
cay - please let me know What palestinian Land is. Can you draw it out or show me on a map?? I jsut want to make sure that I am not colonizing Pal. Land.
Oleh,
Don't know much about your own country's legislation as it regards its Arab citizens do you? the restrictions placed on their rights?
So, never heard of the "The Nationality and Entry into Israel Law"?
First enacted in 2003 and since then renewed each year. This law prohibits the granting of any residency or citizenship status to Palestinians from the 1967 Occupied Palestinian Territories who are married to Israeli citizens.
Thousands of families have been separated by this in a situation reminiscent of the apartheid pass laws. Only a couple of weeks ago 8 women were deported from the village of Jaljulya - taken from their homes at night and dumped at the check point, separated from their husbands and children.
Well Oleh, you could start with international law and where your borders have been set by the UN. Then on a more individual level you could look at the Absentee Properties law which specifically recognises that the land it is confiscated was in fact Palestinian land - only land owned by absentee palestinians was covered by the law not that owned by absentee Jews (many of whom also left the country during the 1948 war.)
cay,
The is a temporary Law That came about in a time where palestinians were using the law in order to get Israeli citizenships Via Fictisios Marriges. But the law itself prooves my point that it is not illegal For Pals. to become Israelies. The law also has to by law be renwed every year.
CAn you direct me to these maps by the U.n. are?? are you reffering to the Partition Plan (1947)?? And if that is what you are tlking about can you remind me when that land became Palestinian?
Oleh,
You said specifically that the situation had not changed in the Intifada. It did - you obviously knew as you have just admitted - so you are a liar. I dont usually waste my time on such --- or on those who use little slimey logical fictions to get out of the fact - you don't want to call those people Palestinians, you don't think Palestinians exist because there was no state called Palestine, but the fact is that's what they call themselves.
So, Ok, Palestinians, Arabs - the land was ruled to be theirs - what's more the many pseudo legal (or legal under the racist apartheid laws common in your country) orders for the confiscation of land both of Arab property in Israel proper, Arab property in East Jerusalem, military orders for confiscation of property in the West Bank. If this land is not the property of these Palestinians/Arabs then why waste so much paper on issuing confiscation orders.
Shaggy, with all these strawmen that are being introduced, I believe you're just a strawman yourself. Your example of moral relativism, comparing teaching honor for the Army to teaching children to hate and kill, is exactly what I was talking about. A moral relativst equates victim and perpetrator as being on the same moral playing field. That's the definition. No strawman there. Though, it is interesting that every time you're posed with a question or a rebuttal, you say you never saw that and start accusing people of putting words into your mouth. Then, you just shout and scream that I should be ashamed of myself for this, that, and the other thing. You know, if you scream loud enough, you can't hear yourself think.
Yes, you do wear rose colored glasses, because if you didn't, you would not make even 1/3 of the comments you make. You'd be a lot better informed, and you would never make moral relativst comments such as you do. And, you would certainly never ask if another person's ashamed at the very thought of defending their existense. And, let's just talk about the way you throw this questions of shame and embarrassment. How do you know any of the people rebutting you are Israeli? If they're not, why do you say, "Aren't you ashamed of YOUR Army's actions?" If I'm American, they're not my Army, now are they? If I'm just Jewish, then Israel isn't my government, now is it? Have you ever gone up to an Irishman and say, "Aren't you ashamed of what YOUR IRA is doing?" Probably not, I would assume. It's only every Jew in the world, outside of Israel, that has defend what "their" government is doing eventhough they're not a citizen of that country. Interesting, no? Moving on.
Shaggy, if I do not understand what terrorism is, can you please give me a definition, or better yet, give me examples of how Israelis are perpetrating this terrorism every day? Since I am obviously, deaf, dumb, and blind, I request that you be my eye and ears and show me the path that leads to the righteous answers. What is terrorism?
Secondly, being that I have a degree in psychology, let's not try to play Freud games. And, even if we were, I don't see their relevence here. What regime are you referring to? Who exactly did they topple? I am so confused.
Again, throwing rhetoric and making Hitler comparisons is the best way for an argument to move away from logic and into emotional hysteria, which I believe is exactly where you want this conversation to go. You do not want to be bombarded with facts and rational since your rhetoric and vitrulent lies, your whole belief system, would be threatened. You do not answer any of my questions, and you do bring any facts. All you do is bring forth rhetoric and spin. If you're going to make comparisons to Hitler and say the IDF is close to assuming his vision of a "Final Solution", please bring proof and examples that the IDF is behaving this way, or carring out these types of orders. I want to be informed. If you don't give me proof, how can I correct the problem? When you say that the IDF will be bringing in forced labor and/or gas chambers against the Palestinians since "they've done everything else", what examples are you referring to? Why hasn't it been all over the front pages of the press?!? Has these atrocities been covered up?!? Is there a conspiracy going on?!? Pray tell, I want to know these atrocities that you speak, so if you would kindly bring in proof and examples of this behavior, it would be greatly appreciated.
Yes, shame on me for knowing the truth. You throw the term shame around when you do not want to answer questions. It's like someone calling you a homophobe for not thinking that gay marriage should be legal. A good way, again, to end an argument using emotion instead of logic and truth. You keep bringing up this Captain R case, yet you seem to know nothing about it. And, if you knew your facts, you would know that the use of Palestinians as shields is against the law here and has been for a while. It is the Palestinian terrorists who use innocent civilians and their houses as shields. If you believe the worse about Jews, which you seem to, only you can believe that a person or a soldier would wantonly attempt to kill innocent civilians. Of course, if you've falled prey to the brilliant PR sceme of the Palestinian terrorist, you do believe that Israeli soldier are cold blooded killers looking to kill babies, and that the Palestinian "militants" are being forced to hide behind a pregnant mother because they have no other armor to protect them. You would believe that it is OK for that same Palestinian gun-man to kill that pregnant mother who is being helped to the side by an Israeli soldier, so she would not get hurt, so the gun-man could more easily kill the Israeli soldier. You would not ask the question why that child is playing in the sreet in the middle of a gun battle. You would not ask the parents who wantonly send their children to die in the middle of these fights why they are there in the first place.
You see, it's so much easier to accept the rhetoric and the propaganda being fed to you than actually thinking and researching what's really going on. That way, you don't have to actually do the work. You can just sit in your bubble and believe whatever you want to believe, regardless of whether it's the truth. Because, well, let's admit, that bubble feels a whole warmer and cozier than the cold hard truth, doesn't it?
-OC
Thanks for calling me a liar. I admitted that I was wrong in that account, but still proved my point. And in any event countries are allowed to change laws in thier country and let anyone they want in. In this case Pals. are still being let into Israel but not as Citizens but as residence, until the issue is resolved.
I have no Issue with the Pals. There is such a thing, I agree totally. If there wasn't we are wasting a lot of time talkign about nothing. They are a nation, and as such I have no issue giving them Recognition, Although that is not an automatic thing, there are many ethnic groups that want independance that do not have it yet. It's a global Issue that has to be resolved.
You still did not answer my question! What is the land the belongs to the palestinians? can you show me a map? I am asking so that we can be on the same page, since what I see and what you see are obviously 2 different things.
Soli, your remarks are extremely cynical, which I like. However, they are misguided and untrue. Israel did not do this to "get back into the headlines". Unlike every other Middle Eastern country, Israel has a freedom of the press, which is utilyzed to its fullest. Also, after the Jenin "debacle" in 2002, the Israeli government decided that it was better to allow press open access to non-clandestine operations. Obviously, the Jericho prison was not a clandestine mission. It has been openly been prepared for for a week, so those conspiracy theories brought forth, like Michael saying that the tractors and bulldozers magically showed up in minutes, so this must have a collusion between Israel, America, and Great Britain, are just absolutely false. Olmert did what was threatened when the agreement was signed and what any government would have done. The Israeli government, and this was agreed upon, stated that if specific prisoners, the planners and murderers or an Israeli Cabinet Member, were to be released, Israel would have full rights to take them into custody.
To say that this was a "ploy" to get Israel into the news is to deny all the facts of the story and make a ridiculous assumption. A vast majority of what's reported in the news about Israel is negative. Why would Israel go out of its way to get more negative press? Israel is so diproportionately in the news compared with other countries, that it takes the threat of a nuclear bomb to get them out of the news. Are you following me here? The only reason this was in the headlines is because there is an open press in Israel; one of the most open and free in the entire free and western world. They were not going to censor the story, ok? They didn't "allow" themselves to be plastered on Al-jazeera. If they were the PA or Egypt or Saudi Arabia, or any of those governments that control the media and the press, they would have simply closed down the area to the press and threaten or arrest anyone taping the event.
That, of course, didn't happen, whalla!, it's on the news, and this one little event takes over the front pages away from "impending" civil war in Iraq, and nuclear threat in Iran. That actually doesn't make much sense, now does it? Thanks for clearing that up.
-OC
Oleh,
Why should I provide a map. You know very well that people were living there. You tell me why laws have been enacted and why military orders continue to be promulgated confiscating land that belonged to arabs (don't call them Palestinians if the name is so obnoxious to you)if those people did not own the land. You tell me why your representatives waste time on this game if these Arab lands do not exist.
Cay - your claim that you studied Israeli land aquisitions post 1948 is disproved by your lack of accuracy. The assignations were made between 1951 and 1958 and were as follows:
During the Ottoman period there were five types of lands –
1. Mulkh lands (Mulkh = king) that were privately owned lands belonging directly to private people.
2. ‘Miri’ lands that were lands that had partial ownership. These lands (actually) belonged to a local or distant ruler who had serfs.
3. ‘Waqf’ lands – these lands belonged to religious orders (like the Temple Mount Waqf) or to some public buildings.
4. ‘Mawat’ lands (‘Dead’ or ‘Land 16’ as the British called them) – Unused and undesignated lands (such as forests, rocky mountain slopes, sand dunes, etc). These lands all belonged to the sovereign. After 1858 they belonged clearly to the Sultan; after 1928 (The British Land Directive), they belonged to His Majesty (King of the British Empire -I); and since 1951 (and the later amendment of 1969) they have belonged to the State of Israel that ‘inherited the sovereignty’ over the lands from the British mandate and the Ottoman rule (‘naturally’).
5. ‘Matruka’ lands – lands for common use and in the public domain – such as roads.
Reapplications were pretty simple –
1. Everything that was ‘Mawat’ – belonged to the State of Israel.
2. Everything that the Jewish National Fund (JNF) had managed to purchase (only about 1 million dunams) – belonged to the Jewish people.
3. Everything that was deserted by the absentees of the War of Independence – became the property of the Development Authority that was established … assessed the value of the absentees’ assets and set aside the money into a special fund in aid of compensating the absentees when this becomes relevant.
4. Everything that was ‘Mulkh’ and ‘Miri’ belonged to those in possession of it – 98% of them Arabs.
5. Everything that was ‘Waqf’ and religious – remained ‘Waqf’, (whereas) all the public buildings where nationalized and became ‘Mawat’, saving a few exceptions.
6. ‘Matruka’ became ‘Mawat’ as well, (meaning that) it was nationalized.
The end result was that –
The JNF had 1 million dunams.
The Development Authority had 2.5 million dunams.
The State of Israel had 14.5 million dunams.
Private citizens (Arabs) had the rest.
Shaggy,
I know all about the Captain R story Trust me. I was around here when it happened - the reason I ask these Questions (So Jewish as you so well point out) is because I want to know what I am up against - I can tell you the whole story from Start to finish but I wanted to see how much of what you know (or think you know) is actually based on Truth or based on some sort of Propoganda.
oh and let me get this Strait - I should be ashamed.. A. for being a Jew B. for Being Israel and C. for... ??? you got me there...
But with all this shame I think I am going to go throw my self off the roof (no I won't give you that pleasure)...
With all your Shame writting you didn't even answer 1 of the many questions (and didn't write any either for me to avoid or to respond to with more Anoying Jewish Style Questions)
Cay
There is also no point in debating JNF land. It is a private fund, provided for with private money for the benefit of a select group of people, much like the Dominos Pizza guy bought land in Florida for the purpose of building a Catholic University, Cathedral and town. It is his money and as long as he follows all zoning laws he is well within his rights. It is just not worth debating. In recognition of the fact that these lands are now in a Jewish country which also has an Arab population and that the lands may abutt Arab land and be more conveniently be placed for Arab use, the JNF now practices land transfers, giving convenient land to Arab villages where applicable in exchange for inconvenient Arab land.
Thats not to say that everything in Israel is fair - but get your facts right before using them to support an argument.
might Irshad has no idea bout this:
stopthewall.org
she's an idiot who feign to be smart.
Has she had any idea of internation law?Had she ever listen to anything called international court?
The wall is stealing the land while being used as the alibi for terror.
You know what,a lesbian and an adultress are reformers of Islam.That's nice.
When will an adultress be allowed to be the reformers of Christianity?
Anonymous,
Re JNF land - in this case JNF is not the owner but the administrator. The "owner" is the Israeli Land Agency which took control of the land when it was confiscated under the Absentee Properties Law. They have a duty to use under Israeli law to use the land for the benefit of Israeli citizens. By delegating management of the land to the JNF, they have excluded 20% of the population from these benefits - and that's leaving aside the ethics of the original confiscations.
Sarah,
Yes, I certainly agree with your proposals about citizenship and I hope that there are many in Israel like you who would also accept the transfer of sovereignty of the settlements, and I hope that Palestinians would accept the the residents as citizens.
Of course, after so many years of bitter fighting, it's difficult to see it working, but as a person who feels a gut reaction against defining who can and who cannot be a citizen on the basis of their ethnic group, I hope that there will be a future when it is possible.
On the subject of the supreme court decision, are you talking about the Ka'adon decision made in 2000? As far as I know, this decision ruled that the JNF should not be used by the Israeli authorities as a means of circumventing their statutary responsiblities to treat citizens equally. The result, I think, was that the JNF was removed from management of lands in sensitive urban areas and instead given management of rural land - not quite the same as ending the practice. Not sure either that the Ka'adon family ever suceeded in leasing the land they were petitioning about. There have been several supreme court decisions over the years favouring arab rights - for example the right of arab villagers for Ikrit and Bilim internally displaced in 1948 to return to their land but the decision was overridden by the government for unspecified security reasons. Is this one any different?
Olah/Oleh,
You still don't understand the problem. You lie and lie again.
Palestein was a country before WWII.
Just because they were Nomads and travelled the land you use this as an excuse to invade.
You both are a sick excuse for Israeli excistence. Keep using you lies and eventually the world will believe you.
You can ridicule me all you want.
The US will eventually leave you alone. Bush has made sure of that.
Post a Comment
<< Home